“Every Inch of My Imagination”: Mangaka Yukimura Makoto on writing women and slavery in Vinland Saga

Spoilers for part one of Vinland Saga

Yukimura Makoto came recently to NYC for Kodansha House to discuss his landmark series Vinland Saga. A work that has been running for nearly twenty years, Vinland Saga could best be described as the greatest anti-war epic of our times—sprawling in scope, it charts the rise and fall of Norse empires and the first European exploration of the American continent through the eyes of Thorfinn, an Icelandic young man who dreams of creating a world without war or slavery. His path getting there is brutal, however: first leaving a trail of bodies in his wake before he is enslaved and loses everything, out of emptiness he is then able to find renewed purpose. 

AniFem had the privilege of being able to attend a Q and A with Yukimura-sensei, hosted by Joe Pascullo of the New York Public Library. The Q and A was wide in scope, spanning from Yukimura’s inspirations for creating Thorfinn to his plans after finishing Vinland Saga in the near future. (Answer: he’s very tired! Even mangaka need breaks.)

Thorfinn’s story was very personal to Yukimura. “He is like me,” Yukimura said. “When I was little, I was just an up-to-no-good, terrible kid. Angry all the time, and thank goodness I didn’t have a knife in my hands!” (At this, the entire audience laughed.) He continued: “Thorfinn reflects myself, and also the kind of person I aspire to be.” 

He talked at length about how he wanted to portray a universal journey from feeling a strong desire for vengeance towards a path of nonviolence, and then addressed how Thorfinn traveling this path was received by readers and editors. Starting off as a violent, traumatized child much like Eren from Attack on Titan, Yukimura was met with utter incomprehension from his editors as he explained his plan for the series: that Thorfinn would let go of his violent desire for revenge and embrace a philosophy of nonviolence. “My editors said, ‘Oh my god, this series is over,’” he joked. “We hugged each other and cried. But I can’t help it, because this is my plan, and I have to proceed with telling this story. But I actually started to take time to tell the stories, and people started to accept the ways Thorfinn has changed over the years.” 

He said he was “so grateful” that people began to understand his vision for Thorfinn: “I was so determined to go in the direction of no wars, no fighting, to keep on going as far away from those things as possible…An outrageous direction to go! I feel grateful that people have observed my point of view, that to grow up is to become more compassionate.”

Anime Feminist also had the remarkable opportunity to interview Yukimura about Vinland Saga, writing female characters, portraying slavery and the role of Buddhist Philosophy in his work. Our interview with him, which was one of the great honors of my time in anime journalism, is below.

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Anime Feminist: While much of the imagery in Vinland Saga is Christian or Norse, many of the ideas feel influenced by Buddhism, particularly the focus on loss of meaning and emptying of purpose as a moment of liberation for Thorfinn. How have Buddhist ideas about self-transformation through emptiness shown up in your work, if they’ve shown up at all?

Yukimura: Excellent question, As you pointed out, we Japanese people have a kind of Buddhist practice reflected in our everyday lifestyle. Take Thorfinn for example. His initial motivation was revenge. But throughout his journey, that concept has almost disappeared, and he must be able to receive a new concept. That point of view is very much a reflection of a Buddhist concept and philosophy. 

Okay, so the idea of 空 (kuu), or “emptiness:” Thorfinn kind of went through a loss of his ideals and his concepts, and throughout that he has been awoken to more of a real life, and that’s when his life actually started.

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Yes, I love how you frame that moment as the “End of the Prologue,” right?

Thank you.

What role did you want Arnheid to play in the series when you created her, as one of the few major female characters in the early parts of the series?

So you’re talking about Arnheid, the woman who was a slave and then ultimately end up dying? [Toni nods.] The reason I came up as this character, Arnheid, is that I wanted to specify the direction Thorfinn and Einar are going in their journey to make a better world. But what is this new world about? And who is it for? I wanted to be as specific as possible about this and to reflect that kind of the longing for the peace, the place without wars, somewhere that somebody unfortunate, like Arnheid, would be living safely, those are the kind of world that I wanted our main characters to build in the future story.

Women are often treated as mere receptacles for suffering in narratives about violence, but Arnheid’s emotional life is far more complex than that. How did you think about creating a compelling psychological portrait of slavery, and especially the experiences of enslaved women?

If you have read the story and felt like the psychological portrayal of Arnheid is realistic in some way, then I feel like my goal was accomplished here. I really did have a difficult time going into the psyche of Arnheid, because I’m not a woman, and I have never gone to war, and I am not a slave. So I really used every inch of my imagination to try to imagine: what would the life of such a person be like? When there is a war, of course, everybody suffers, but at the same time, I think the people who suffer the most are often women and children. I really felt like I must write her. It was my mission to portray this character in order to make Thorfinn’s life later on in the story to be against the war, and long for release. She was an essential character for his motivation.

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I can see that throughout the story. I mean, the first inkling Thorfinn has of regret about the war is when he sees a woman who he has, who has supported him, but then he ultimately betrays. So I can see that attention through the rest of the story too, even in part one.

Every time I introduce a female character in the story, I try to consider what they’re going through and how much they might feel, as much as possible. I can make, like, a really hot headed big guy quite easily, like myself, because they’re kind of like myself.

That’s so interesting, given I know what you’ve said about violence and your personal opinions about violence. And the plight of women and children has always been a part of Norse mythology. I mean, even in Beowulf, women are kind of bearing the worst of the war.

According to many researchers, women in the North still had a certain level of rights. Some would argue that the condition for women was better in Northern Europe than in Europe itself, but, but I wouldn’t know that for sure.

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On the other hand, you represent many different psychologies of enslavers in Olmar, Ketil, and Thorgil, and the harm that those psychologies cause. How did you think about depicting the world of Ketil’s farm and the system of slavery that he implemented?

That scene where Ketil is being violent against Arnheid [Yukimura mimes beating somebody]–It wasn’t a scene that I really, really wanted to draw. But was absolutely necessary for the story, so I had to write it. So it was just absolutely necessary that I portray without looking away from the situation, without ignoring the situation, I have to portray the ignorance of men in general, including myself, in order to tell this story.

That is such an interesting moment, because the beating of Arnheid–until then Ketil seems like he could represent a “good slave owner.” [Note: To be clear, such things do not exist–I am speaking in terms of stereotypes and myths used to justify slavery here.] But after that, that moment destroys any idea that we have that he was a “good slave owner.”

I feel sorry for the guy, actually, I feel like he was kind of pushed to the limit, to the point where he was broken. However, his frustration has been directed towards somebody weaker than weakest of all who is considered the slaves, and I felt very sorry for him.

Thank you. What do you think the relevance of Vinland Saga is in our modern times? Why write a story like Thorfinn’s now?

I started to write the story almost 20 years ago. Back then, the world was a much more peaceful place compared to nowadays. Back then, somebody told me we should be thinking about war when there is no war. And this is something that I have kept to my heart, and I have been doing since. So I was, you know, thinking about war when there was no war for almost 20 years, and now time has caught up in a way that the world unfortunately is a sadder place than what I could ever have imagined. So now is actually the best time to read my work: what I always wanted to write about has always been the message of peace and compassion.

I want to say your work, to me, is part of a larger group of works like Pluto and Dead Dead Demon’s Dededede Destruction that have, I think, helped people deeper understand war and genocide in our present times. Because of reading your work, Asano-sensei’s work, Thich Nhat Hanh’s work, and my Buddhist practice, I feel more enriched and enlivened in my everyday life and more emboldened to engage in nonviolence. For that, I thank you.

I’ll do my best too. Let’s do it together.

Let’s do it together. Thank you.