Chatty AF 213: Revolutionary Girl Utena Watchalong – Episodes 35-39 (WITH TRANSCRIPT)

VRAI: If you’re a kid, you’ve got, you know, Dear Brother in 1991—dead gays. You’ve got Kaworu in ‘96—dead gays. You’ve got Nuriko in Fushigi Yugi. You’ve got… Really, as far as positive queer couples, you’ve got Haruka and Michiru in Sailor Moon. They flirt like nobody’s business but they don’t get to kiss on screen either. So, I get very defensive when people are like, “This isn’t as gay as everyone built it up to—” Motherfucker, I will cut you.

[Introductory musical theme]

VRAI: Hello and welcome to Chatty AF: The Anime Feminist Podcast. My name is Vrai. I’m the daily operations manager here at AniFem. I’m on Bluesky sometimes @writervrai. And with me, once again, are the wonderful Cy and Chiaki.

CHIAKI: I’m exhausted. Terrible.moe for my socials. Alright, there you go.

CY: Hi, I’m Cy and I’m sitting triangulated between four different fans. I’m a staff editor here at Anime Feminist. I am currently turning into the world’s first human-made puddle of chocolate ice cream. And you can find me @pixelatedlenses most times online, except for recently because it’s just too hot to sit at a computer. I’m 100% organic.

VRAI: So you’re like 80% free of pesticides and rat feces. I think that’s a good percentage.

CY: I’m GMO free, ABC free, FBI free, CIA free. All the alphabets.

CHIAKI: Most important, are you vegan friendly?

CY: I mean, I really like pork. [Chuckles] So, I’m just gonna be real. I had some honey garlic pork from the Chinese restaurant last night, so not today! [Chuckles]

VRAI: We have finally arrived at the end of the Utena TV series, which is the penultimate episode of this watchalong. This week, we watched episodes 35 to 39. As a heads-up, if you are following along and haven’t rewatched these yet but were maybe thinking you would, there are a lot of flashing lights in these last couple episodes because that’s how they get around having gore in, is just a lot of flashing light imagery. So, if you are sensitive to that, please take care. Also, there’s so much weaponized victim-blaming. So much. It’s just wall to wall in this stretch of episodes. So, if you’re revisiting that, it’s good to know. That aside, how are your feelings feeling?

CY: [Simulates pained sobbing] Does that sum it up? Does that sum it up? [Chuckles] [Simulates sobbing through laughter] That’s how I feel.

CHIAKI: I’m just happy. Good for them!

VRAI: Merry Christmas, everyone!

CY: Did you know that love is the strongest thing two people can generate? [Chuckles] Did you know!

VRAI: Especially when it’s gay!

CHIAKI: Can bloom on the battlefield…

CY: Oh, my God, the battlefield of your heart, the battlefield at the end of the world, the battlefield at a school that… like, where is that budget coming from to build this tower? Oh, my God!

CHIAKI: Explanation of how that tower was manifesting, although still kind of completely fake and cannot possibly be real, I’ll accept it.

VRAI: You’re prepared to accept the architectural logic of the enormous penis tower? Revolutionary Girl Utena, one of the greatest television shows ever made.

CY: I finally understand what it is that queer people feel about this show, in a very genuine way. Like, I went into this thinking, “Okay, it’s likely I’m gonna like it because I’m me,” and I have come out with this really deep appreciation for, like… I mean, it is not… by all means, it is not a perfect narrative. It is messy. But I think it is messy in the way that the narrative of real, lived human experience is, and I see now all of these threads of where Utena walked so all of these shows could fly and delve deeper into aspects of this narrative. Like, I get it. I get it. Oh, my God, I… Yeah, I get it. I get it, y’all. I’ve been changed.

VRAI: [Chuckles] Chiaki, was it worth having to give up your meme?

CHIAKI: Yeah, no, I enjoyed it. Like… I don’t know. Like… I wouldn’t say that this is the most groundbreaking thing that I’ve ever seen, but I can see where Cy is coming from, and, put into context, I totally appreciate it. Yes.

CY: I do want to say… like, for me, it’s like I have seen these stories before, so this is adding to that canon, but I imagine, Vrai, in 1997 this would have, um, revolutionized my world. Also would have answered a lot of questions about my sexuality.

CHIAKI: Yeah, when you think about it, as a queer fan of anime in the late ‘90s, early ‘00s, seeing this probably would have been the shit, right? It definitely would have activated neurons that I never realized existed.

VRAI: Yeah. We’re gonna get into this—or I wanted to get into this a little later, too, I think, but I definitely think it is worth emphasizing with Utena that the landscape it came out of… You know, there were extremely important subtexty shows like Ranma, the show that cracked a thousand eggs for Millennial and Gen-Xers. But as far as overtly queer narratives, it was a lot of… You had stuff in the film and OVA market. Like, there was some BL OVAs at the time like Earthian and Fake, Ai no Kusabi, Zetsuai 1999 [sic], all those. But a lot of what made it to television was either dead gays or comedy queers—who sometimes still ended up dead. You know, it’s… And especially reiterating that this aired on TV Tokyo after Evangelion, which did the things that Eva did, and TV Tokyo really sort of… anecdotally—there’s not internal documents… but just really swerved back more conservative and more careful about what they were airing right after that. 

So, you know, if you’re a kid, you’ve got, you know, Dear Brother in 1991—dead gays. You’ve got Kaoru in ‘96—dead gays. You’ve got Noriko in Fushigi Yugi. You’ve got… Really, as far as positive queer couples, you’ve got Haruka and Michiru in Sailor Moon. They flirt like nobody’s business but they don’t get to kiss on screen either. So, I get very defensive when people are like, “This isn’t as gay as everyone built it up to—” Motherfucker, I will cut you.

CY: Also, yearning is the queerest thing. Yearning? Yearning… is so queer. Like, oh, my God. Yeah, this show is this… Oh, my God, mm, mm. Yeah, I’m so glad we don’t have dead gays here. Like… mm. Mm.

VRAI: Well, and I get— We might as well talk about it now, because I wanted to talk about the student council episodes first off. But yeah, part of the reason—the big reason—I was really disappointed at Crunchyroll doing Crunchyroll bullshit is that it means y’all have the old subs on the Nozomi YouTube channel, and there was a really important line in the scene where Juri and Miki and Utena are all playing badminton together and sort of putting things to rest, and it’s really nice and I have feelings about it. But, you know, Juri has that line where she bluntly brings up to Utena, “You know, you’re in love with her, aren’t you?” And Utena’s response is “My feelings aren’t like your feelings.” 

And this scene has been… was the cornerstone of queer erasure by viewers of this show for decades! The traditional translation of the subs that I think is also the ones you had were “My feelings are pure,” which is loaded as hell! And that was one of the big lines that they went back and reassessed when they were putting out the Blu-ray, and sort of in conversation with the folks at Empty Movement. And fun fact: the Blu-ray version of the line is that “My feelings are genuine,” you know, not to say that yours aren’t genuine and so forth. And it’s really nice in terms of what Utena is saying, as far as… she doesn’t have the baggage of the possessiveness and all of the messed-up history that Juri and Shiori have. You know, she really wants to help Anthy, is what she’s trying to get forward in that sense. Like, she views it as a selfless love, not necessarily “What? No homo!” And so, the line for the Blu-ray is “My feelings are genuine.” And that was actually suggested by our very own Dee, Josei Next Door. I think that’s neat.

CY: Wow.

CHIAKI: Hm. Okay. Yeah, and I mean, it’s definitely a… You know what’s weird? For me, listening to the Japanese version… I know you asked me to take a quick look: それは先輩の好きとは違いますよ。[“Sore wa senpai no suki to-wa chigaimasu yo.”] I do get where the “pure” reading came from, and I can recognize it as what a translator might take as canon. So, I feel like the Japanese version of the text feels much more open to interpretation at the time.

CY: Because I’m just thinking of how that change of it being “My love is different from the love you feel” really does open up a really slippery slope to what love is okay and what love is acceptable, and I don’t like that implication being put there. Even if that’s not the intent, I think so often intent versus the actuality of a thing… you know, what actually comes out is what matters more. And I’m just kind of ruminating on that.

VRAI: Yeah, totally. And it was… I think it’s pretty rare these days for people to deny that Utena and Anthy are kind of one of the foundational sapphic couples in anime. Pink and purple girls everywhere, as far as the eye can see! But for a long time, even into the 2010s, the sort of go-to line was “Well, no, they’re not gay in the TV show. It’s only gay in the movie because they kiss on screen in that one, but they’re just really good friends on TV,” at which point I tap the sign about how Haruka and Michiru never got to explicitly say that they were lovers.

CHIAKI: Yeah, like, can I also just take a moment to say, if they fucking kiss in the movie, it’s not like, well, they weren’t gay until they kissed. Like, no, they’ve always been gay. [Chuckles] You can’t just say that! I find that complete bullshit. And I mean, in watching this show, you know, and even if I say the line leaves things up to interpretation for that specific context, if you watch the rest of the show, the subtext is right there. It’s really almost not really subtext anymore. And if you can’t see it, you’re kinda blind.

CY: You would have to be willingly obfuscating the very clear textual evidence that these two young women love each other and very openly love each other to— And, like, you know, even I, an asexual aromantic, can see that there is such clear evidence of this love being romantic. And I think, at this point in 2024, if you are on the side of “Well, they don’t kiss in canon in the show,” then you might want to check your homophobia at the door. You might want to check what bias is making you think that this is not as authentic as any other romance in anime. Because you’re just being a silly goose.

VRAI: [Chuckles] Well, and this is a show that is so… Dozens and dozens of papers and books and essays online have been written about this show. And there’s so much you can go through on a rewatch, even before that line, that’s really rich texture about double meanings for scenes that apply to other characters and also to do with what Anthy is going on, which is kind of— If you like the show, I really do recommend watching it a second time just to watch what’s going on with Anthy, because there really is this entire second thematic layer. 

This time, I was really thinking about “The Love That Blossomed in Wintertime,” which is… you know, the front layer is that it’s about Touga sort of realizing that “Oh, actually, I really am in love with Utena, and I want what’s best for her even if I still don’t know how to do that. I’ve hit that wall that all the other duelists have hit.” And at the same time, you sort of have those quiet shots of Anthy’s face as she’s struggling and failing to respond to Akio about knowing what is coming in the plan that they laid out and “Oh, shit, I’m not okay with this maybe!” Like, realizing— I think she maybe doesn’t realize until then.

CY: Yeah, because it’s really… This show definitely has a high amount of rewatchability, and I think in maybe half a year I really want to revisit it again because you do get these interesting peaks of, like… it’s not that there’s a secondary show happening; it’s just that there are two very parallel plays happening on the same stage. And knowing everything I know about Anthy, oh, my God, I want to go back and watch for my girl. I want to go back and watch for my girl.

VRAI: Yeah, I guess it’s as good a time as any to sort of check back in. You know, we sort of put a pin in it last week talking about this show’s issues with race and racism. And I did want to know, once you had seen the entire show, does the fact that ultimately the catharsis of the finale is about freeing Anthy, is about Anthy as this sort of universal scapegoat figure—even by the world, even by her brother as a man of color—and the fact that it’s about freeing her from that cycle of that abuse, does that affect how you feel about what you were talking about last time? Is it too much at the end for 38 episodes before that? Is it— What— Speak on it, if you would.

CY: Yeah, so I want to preface this with I’m coming at this from the perspective of being a direct descendant, like traceable lineage, to the slaves that were directly affected by Juneteenth. So, my perspective is always going to be informed by that heritage. It is really hard to watch, especially, darker-skinned, marginalized people suffer. It just is. And I think part of that is certainly influenced by everything happening since the pandemic in 2020, part of that is influenced by human empathy, and part of it is influenced by there being, especially when you’re Black, so many pieces of media where suffering services a narrative of, like, “Don’t you feel bad that…” I’m trying to think of a Black slave name; I can’t think of one… but that “Hercules… Hercules had to suffer like this?” And so, there’s that complex.

I will say that I do think some of my opinion has changed, because what you see is that it’s really the brutality of someone in the in-group that is willingly maintaining the status quo of Anthy going through this cycle of being unable to die, of being punished, and that ultimately, she says, “No, I don’t deserve this. I don’t deserve this from someone who’s from my in-group, from someone who is supposed to love and care about me, for someone who I sacrificed for. And so what I’m going to do is I’m going to free myself from that system and I’m going to wholly remove myself from this system of patriarchy and punishment, and I am going to write my own narrative.”

And that’s really complex because, on one hand, why do black and brown individuals have to suffer? Why is there this weird, socialized beauty and tragedy in the narrative of people who look like me, inclusive of being Black, inclusive of being darker skinned? Why is there something tragically beautiful in our suffering and in our pain? Right? There is that. And I think if you remove that from this story, you’re missing out on a really important part of it. But I also think that there is beauty in the fact that the way that Anthy frees herself is through using violence, I mean, through Utena, through them dueling.

And I think so often, especially darker-skinned people… and I’m like I said, I’m coming at this from the perspective of being Black, but especially if you’re Black, you know, people love to uplift MLK Jr. and be like, “He did it nonviolently! He did it without fighting and raising a fist!” which really defangs literally everything he and so many people did. Like, they weaponized nonviolence in very specific ways, but if y’all don’t think MLK Jr. wanted to box up, you have deified someone who was very human. And so, I think there is beauty in the fact that Anthy uses the tools of the master in the master’s house to tear down the house. And, like, I mean, you know, you have that moment at the end where Akio is like, “Oh, we gotta rewrite the system. Gotta change it. You ready to go again, Anthy?” and Anthy’s like, “No! I’m not doing that. Here’s my glasses. I’m throwing off the shackles. I’m done. I’m not doing this. I’m not doing this, because I realize I have worth and I realize that my existence has worth.” And I think… Yeah, I have complex feelings, but I ultimately do think things did change, having seen the story play out in full.

CHIAKI: And again, for me, in the previous episode of this podcast, I think I phrased it in a way that, you know, Anthy and Akio’s skin color wasn’t necessarily something cognizant for the creators of the show, like the full scale of what it means to have someone with darker skin doing this. I think they were aiming for some kind of exotification to highlight them in this context specifically, that they are different from everyone else. And so, in so doing, I think… you know, again, the ending, I feel… For me, I just think Anthy freeing herself, regardless of race or anything, was the most touching way to kind of cap it off. To break from the cycle of trauma and abuse, I think, was the most powerful. Yeah. So, for me, I don’t think it changes the perspective too much, but Cy, I think you put it far more eloquently and, I think, have much more depth in your analysis than I ever could have.

CY: [Chuckles] Because it was something that, like… For me, it was very hard to put aside noticing that as we watch this kind of peak and… like, you know, especially with… So, and I mean, like, if It’s okay to talk about Anthy’s suicide attempt… which, I mean, obviously trigger warning. Jesus Christ, there is a lot of sadness. And, you know, Anthy’s suicide attempt was really when it kind of gelled for me, because I was like, “Okay, so you have a girl who has been forced into this sacrificial role,” which, as a Black person, I do understand how that feels, right, being forced to sacrifice, being forced to be pleasant, being forced to obscure your feelings. And it comes to a head! 

She’s not okay. She’s not okay. And that not-okayness being acceptable for her… because I do think there is the fact that… yeah, I don’t think the thought of Anthy’s skin coloration was… I mean, it just kind of gives the scare-quotes “exotic” vibe to her and her brother. But I do think when you put it in the context of this young dark-brown woman suffering and realizing, like, “I can’t do this. I cannot do this alone, but I certainly can’t do this,” you know, and you go from that to her stabbing Utena, and you’re like, “What’s gonna happen? Is she gonna fall back into the system? You know, she’s got the master’s tools. Is she gonna actually tear it down?” Yeah. Oof, mm. Getting shivers! Analytical shivers! [Chuckles]

VRAI: I did really want to ask you both about the stabbing scene, because I… I feel like I get it now, but I watched this series for the first time when I was 19, and I didn’t understand that. And as I get older, I feel like I really respect… I really respect the show’s decision to let the audience not understand Anthy’s emotional complexity in that moment, and I did not, for a long time!

CY: Yeah, I’ll admit it took me by surprise. I was like, “Okay, they’re gonna do it! They got it! They’re doing it! Oh, shit! Oh, no!”

CHIAKI: [Chuckles] Oh, no!

CY: Oh, no! Yeah, I did not expect it. And I mean, it’s set up beautifully. Utena is standing there with her sword, Anthy comes up and embraces her, and then all of a sudden, Utena looks like a shish kebab at a summer barbecue. And the way that they fall together and Anthy’s dress spreads out behind her like a pool of blood is really evocative. And I’m not sure that I completely understand what was happening. And I think that that’s okay, because sometimes I think we do things and we don’t ourselves understand them.

CHIAKI: Sure, yeah.

VRAI: Yeah.

CY: But I would also love an explanation. [Chuckles]

VRAI: [Laughs]

CY: I really would!

VRAI: What about you, Chiaki?

CHIAKI: Yeah, no, I mean… [Sighs] I think I’m still kinda trying to process that, that particular scene. Like, it is confusing. It is what keeps me going like, “Okay, is Anthy really, actually a villain?” It really took until the very last scene of her stepping away from the school that I was like, “Okay, but is Anthy the villain?” [Chuckles] I wasn’t— I kinda had to keep asking and going like, no, that can’t possibly be quite what’s there. There’s something deeper and I’m trying to process it a little bit. But I don’t think I’m there yet.

CY: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

VRAI: Fully?

CHIAKI: Yeah.

VRAI: Yeah. So, for me, one thing I really noticed this watch-through is… So, Akio… Akio’s duel with Utena, right, is a big, long villain monologue for him, where he’s testing her and trying to tear her down and doing some of the stuff that I think makes him one of the most terrifyingly effective villains out there, especially in coming-of-age media, where he’s so good at taking things that are technically true and weaponizing them, like “You didn’t turn me down even though I had a fiancée,” you know, ignoring all the elements of context in that. And I think, in a certain sense, that is about Utena and about this trial to make sure… the sword is strong enough; it’s not even about her. 

But I also think that it’s about Anthy, because in the episodes leading up to the finale, you can sort of see more of a gap growing between Akio and Anthy, I think because Anthy has realized her feelings. You know, there’s that scene I find really gutting, when they’re talking and Anthy tries to get Utena’s attention to ask to speak with her alone, and Akio swans in like, “Hey, can I steal her from you?” Cough-cough-cough. And so, like they’re… Yeah. So, I think… I think part of that conversation is also to remind her that “You’ve been doing this, too. You’re complicit in this, too. What, you think it makes it different that you like this one?” Because they did all this to Mikage, presumably, and dozens and dozens and dozens of dead students before them. And I think it is his way of reminding her that I’m the only one who’s ever going to love you or understand you or forgive you for what you’ve done. 

You know, even though, before this we’ve had the cantarella scene, which I really like, which is sort of Utena and Anthy talking about “poisoned these cookies,” “What a coincidence… I put poison in your tea,” and I like that scene a lot. But I don’t know that Anthy believes it entirely. And she also has that line “You remind me so much of Dios when I loved him.” And I think maybe between blaming herself and feeling like she’s unforgivable and also feeling like, “What if Utena turns out… What if Utena becomes like Akio?” You know, at least she knows the situation she’s in now. At least she knows how to survive, how to sort of get her licks in a way that at least lets her hold on. And it’s really scary to think of throwing that away, of believing in someone.

CY: [crosstalk] Yeah, I mean, it’s so much like… You know, I think people who have not endured trying to leave an abusive situation may not understand this feeling, but there’s a unique feeling that comes with the perspective when you are at that point where you can actually leave but you’re scared, because it’s the monster you know. And, I mean, unfortunately I have very personal experience with that, but sometimes you are willing to bear with the monster you know because you know how to find safety, you understand your role. 

And there’s a cruelty that comes with understanding when you’re in an abusive relationship and when you’re being abused, right? And I feel like these last five episodes are Anthy showing us the awareness that she’s already shown, which is she knows this is not good. But what does it mean to give trust to somebody else who could potentially hurt you again and could actually hurt you more because you’ve put this new trust in them? And I think that’s really poignant here, because yeah, you know, when she says that “You remind me of my brother who I loved,” like, dang! That’s a lot of weight put on both of y’all. That’s a lot of weight put on this mutual relationship of, like, “Okay, am I going to live up to expectations or am I going to end up living down to them?”

VRAI: Yeah, this is basically the stretch of episodes that’s like “Here’s all the famous quotes from this show.”

CHIAKI: [Chuckles]

VRAI: But they have the line she says to Utena, too, “You could never be my prince because you’re a girl,” and the amount of weight that has because of all the layers that prince-ness entails at this point, right?

CHIAKI: Mm-hm.

CY: Mm-hm, mm-hm. These poor kids. These poor kids.

VRAI: They’re children!

CHIAKI: They are absolutely children.

VRAI: Every so often, somebody— Yeah, every so often somebody will try to pop up and do age gap discourse with Anthy, but I just… To me, she’s just so… as much as she’s suffered for eons, she’s still such a teenage—she’s still such a child, also. She’s, like, frozen at that moment.

CY: She is very much so— I cannot believe this is gonna leave my mouth, but this is the thought I had. She’s very much so like Stephanie Meyer’s vampires, frozen at the moment of their change. And, like, Anthy… Anthy is like… she’s still a kid! Doesn’t matter that she might be like a 10,000-year-old dragon. She’s a child still, and she’s very much so like they are playing it straight, like this is someone who is still a child who has been emotionally impacted by the constant abuse, by taking on the hate of millions of people. Like, she’s still a kid. Yeah, screw that age gap nonsense. This is a child. These are both— These are children. And even Akio, in his horror… he is legally an adult, so I’m not going to let him off the hook that much. But even he is held by his childhood in a way. He still does a lot of bad things. He still does a lot of bad things.

VRAI: Akio is a bastard and fuck him, but he’s also really fascinating and tragic.

CY: Yeah. Yeah. Like, fuck him. Throw the man out. But also… it is horrifically more complicated than that.

VRAI: Yeah, actually, I can read a little bit from Ikuni’s creator… his notes that go along with the last episode.

CY: Do it.

CHIAKI: Please do.

VRAI: So, this one’s actually… This is a little long to read all of, but… So, he talks a little bit about the dual meanings of “utena,” where it’s the calyx of a flower that’s sort of the support for the rest of the story, but it also means a tall tower or a pedestal, which became the central dueling tower that sort of mapped out to the rest of the story. So, originally, “in the early stages of production, when the story wasn’t firmly established yet, this was one of the aspects I most wanted to visualize and produce for the screen. A world where demons roam. In its center, a tower called the ‘Tower of Revolution.’ Whosoever can remain victorious in his battles against the demons can reach the pinnacle of the Tower of Revolution and at the same time receive the power to revolutionize the world, the power that changes the rules of the world. 

“However, when he reaches the pinnacle, he learns the world’s governing laws. He faces the ultimate choice: will he stay nobly, beautifully powerless, or will he accept ugliness into himself and gain absolute power? He desired both. Or rather, perhaps he couldn’t choose either. His mind in anguish, he divided himself in two: his noble heart and the adult with absolute power. And so, with one last wish that the day would come when someone would awaken him, the noble heart that had lost its body—in other words, the prince—fell into a deep sleep.

“Early on in the series’s conception, I kicked around the idea of placing something like the above at the heart of the story. Later, after several changes, it became the tale as you know it, but without a doubt, he did reach the pinnacle of the Tower of Revolution. It was a place where ‘eternity’ dwelled, and ‘eternity’ turned out to mean perpetual sleep. The prince (Akio) who became an adult while in perpetual sleep lost something. What he lost was the power to create an enjoyable future. Revolution means gaining the power to imagine the future.

“The prince chose to sleep on, and the princess chose to wake up. At the top of that tall tower, the princess bid farewell to the prince. No, she wasn’t the princess any longer. She quit being a person (thing) ruled by someone. The victory bells rang, but there was no tower (rule) beyond them now. She’d learned where freedom lay. She crossed the threshold of that Door of Revolution, which had always been closed to her before, and began walking. The girls’ revolution lay in the girls’ future.

“‘Wait for me, Utena.’ The world (the stage) is free and wide.”

And then I cry. And then I cry again!

CHIAKI: You know, reading that over and thinking about Akio being split in two with the sleeping prince versus the prince with absolute power, well, we’ve really only gotten to know the prince with absolute power. And if the prince is dead—you know, if the noble prince is dead or sleeping—doesn’t that just mean basically that he became the prince with absolute power?

VRAI: Like, this idea that the prince is dead, the prince cannot exist because the burden upon him would be impossible for… Like, this system is untenable to ask all girls to wait for this mythical prince who would simply give out.

CHIAKI: Mm-hm. Yeah. I feel like in so not choosing, he has chosen.

VRAI: Yeah. I mean, that’s something we talk about all the time in progressive and political action discourse, right? To fail to choose is to choose the status quo. I find Utena so moving as this portrait of… as someone I see some of my younger self in. When she and Anthy have that conversation on the rooftop, where she says, “You know, I said I wanted to save you, but it was really just about my ego, because I wasn’t looking at you as the person. I couldn’t see that you were suffering.” And I find that moment of realization so beautiful. And it’s really sad and good, because she’s a child and that’s such a mature realization to have!

CHIAKI: Yeah, and really human as a moment, too.

CY: And it’s lifesaving, ultimately, right? The fact that Utena is the one person who sees Anthy’s humanity and is like, “You know, I did wrong. I did you dirty. I did wrong. And I don’t know what I can do to make up for it. But I want to.” Like, that… ugh! Oh, my God! The way that that is life changing and the way that that is so intensely authentic… and, like, yeah, it’s a kid having an adult’s realization. But it ultimately gives Anthy part of the power she needs to say, “No. You’re not going to abuse me anymore. You’re not going to hurt me. I’m done. I’m gonna put on my little fit, my little cute outfit, got my bag, and I’m out. You have to figure out this thing on your own, brother. Not me anymore.”

VRAI: Yeah, Utena can’t be Anthy’s prince, and that’s ultimately why she can help her, because she can see her as an equal. And then Anthy wears pink, which is like… I mean, God, you could go all day about the color symbolism in this show but we didn’t really have time to go into [it], but she’s wearing pink, and it’s like the crossroads between the noble white naïveté and the blood of the blood-red roses that get thrown around by the abusive, powerful men in this series, but pink is knowledgeable but hopeful and free, and Anthy…!

CY: It’s so good. It’s so good and it’s so symbolic and it’s so… I mean, because these last five episodes are loaded with symbolism. Don’t even get me started on all of the cactus symbolism. But it is… Yeah, she wears pink, and it’s really the first time I realized that we see Anthy look something like herself, look like who I think she actually is going to be.

CHIAKI: She’s not wearing a uniform.

CY: Yeah. Like, these are clothes that I like to think that Anthy went and bought and she tried them on and maybe she had to try on a few different things, and she saw this and she was like, “This is actually what I need. This is the armor I’m going to wear as I go and find Utena wherever she is. She’s not here, and I’m gonna join her wherever she is.” Ugh. God, fuck, this is such a good series! Oh, my God, this is such a good series!

VRAI: And I also… I wanted to talk about the dueling tower tumbling. And actually, before I do, I wanted to circle back to part of the director commentary from the last Mikage duel that I skipped because it was a massive spoiler. So, the second half of that bit of commentary was: “Those who reject that place are, conversely, rejected by it as well. This is the nature of systems: the moment you reject them, you’re forced to realize that they’re the very ground you’re standing on. Mikage noticed the trick behind the system, and he hurriedly attempted revisions. But the adult who created the system just said, ‘Let’s not,’ and unilaterally brought the curtain down. The system of illusion was finished. Mikage could no longer exist there. That’s why he disappeared from the memories of those who’d interacted with him.

“People’s happiness or unhappiness shouldn’t be determined by struggles over a device called ‘the Rose Bride.’ Utena rejects the duel system. However, in due course, Utena will be rejected by the duel system and that place, and no longer be able to exist there. This foreshadows the final scene of the series.”

CY: Sorry, it’s just a lot of thoughtful noises from me, because I’m just like, whew!

VRAI: [Laughs]

CY: Oh, my God! Oh, my God. I get it! I get it! Oh, my God!

CHIAKI: Yeah, I understand. Mm-hm.

VRAI: It all comes tumbling down for Utena and for Anthy, but it still exists to Akio and all the other people who are still trapped there. It’s dissolved, but it hasn’t.

CHIAKI: I mean, you know, again, breaking from that abuse, breaking from that cycle… it’s only you, yourself. It’s the individual who gets away. It’s not that the system itself is remade unless everyone is free from it, right? So…

VRAI: Yeah. Yeah, it’s actually something I’ve talked with Toni about and something they… you know, they’re a big Ikuhara fan, but one of the things that they sometimes find frustrating is that his works do tend to focus on that very individual course of realization. He’s always about the revolution of the individual and stepping away from the system rather than the collective tearing down the system.

CHIAKI: And I mean, I think in terms of telling a story or looking at what an individual can do, it’s… I mean, on one hand, revolutionizing a system is a great ideal, right? Everyone kind of wants to tear it all down. But I think what’s achievable, and what a lot of people who need healing really need to do, is first looking at themselves and breaking free from that. You can work towards recreating and reforming or replacing a bad system, but you can’t do that unless you yourself are able to recognize and free yourself from it.

CY: Absolutely.

VRAI: I think that will be an interesting subject to come back to when we talk about the movie, which… What are you two expecting from the movie at this point?

CY: Car! Car!

CHIAKI: Utena turns into a car!

CY: Car, car! Car, car! [Chuckles] Car!

CHIAKI: Car, car, car, car, car, car, car, car!

CY: [crosstalk] Car, car, car, car, car, car, car!

VRAI: Good, yes.

CY: Yes. I want it to be hot pink, and I want it to happen when they kiss, and then they turn into a car and it goes vroom! And then they kill Akio, and the day is saved because they killed Akio.

CHIAKI: [crosstalk] Just run him over.

CY: Yeah.

CHIAKI: Just run him over.

CY: They hit him and he, like, does a backflip, only he’s not alive anymore.

[Laughter]

CY: Is that too grim?

VRAI: No. It’s beautiful and I support it. Gonna feel like you’re gonna have a real good time.

CHIAKI: Little vehicular manslaughter as a treat.

VRAI: I will say, a thing to emotionally steel yourself for, just in terms of this, well, car— No. No, a thing to steel yourself for in terms of the thing that’s always the major weak point of this franchise, which is its relationship to Anthy’s race: they lightened her skin tone in the movie, and it fucking sucks. And I think—

CY: What? No! Vrai, no!

CHIAKI: [Laughs dryly]

CY: Vrai, no. No, surely, Vrai. Surely… Vrai, is it like April Fools’ in July? Surely you’re fucking with me, dude. What?

VRAI: Hold on, I’m gonna put a picture in the Discord.

CY: Oh, boy. Oh, boy. [Chuckles nervously] Cy has one fear. One fear, and it’s gonna be—

CHIAKI: Just one? Oh, you’re right, though. You’re right, though.

CY: Oh, no, I haven’t seen it, y’all! [Guffaws] Oh, no! Oh, no!

VRAI: Yeah… It sucks.

CHIAKI: [Laughs dryly]

VRAI: It’s the thing that’s shitty about the movie!

CY: Oh, my God! Oh, my God, and they, like… And they moe-fied her eyes and gave her a bindi?

VRAI: She has a bindi in the TV series.

CY: Or is that like a—?

VRAI: It’s just, like, [obscured by crosstalk].

CHIAKI: [Obscured by crosstalk]

CY: Okay. Okay, it’s just hidden behind her bangs [obscured by crosstalk].

VRAI: It’s just like a—

CY: But they moe-fied her eyes!

VRAI: Well, that— the—

CY: Why does she look so uwu?

VRAI: Everybody looks like that in the movie.

CHIAKI: Different production team.

CY: Ugh, I don’t want ‘em to look more uwu! They’ve been through trauma! They should look more “Ooh-whoa!”

[Laughter]

CHIAKI: I was gonna say… I was gonna say, you know, I’ve been through enough trauma and I’m still uwu!

CY: You know what, Chiaki? You are uwu. I hate that her skin tone— The colors aren’t even popping in the right way. Also, her hair is straighter! Who gave Anthy a carotene treatment? Aw, oh! [Chuckles] Okay, we gotta move on, because I could sit on this all day. But I’m perturbed! I’m shook!

VRAI: [crosstalk] Yeah, no, see, she’s got a bindi in the TV series, too. It’s just a dot on her character design. They didn’t take the— They didn’t have the budget to color it red every time.

CY: [Laughs] That’s so fucked up. That’s so funny. Oh, my God. Oh, well, okay, well, I’m looking forward to the movie.

VRAI: Um…

CY: Yes, I still am. I still am. Vrai, I didn’t like that “um.” I didn’t like that “um.”

VRAI: No, no, it’s not a bad “um.” That is truly the only thing that bothers me about the film. It’s a weird movie, and people have feelings about it, but that’s the only thing that I would step over and say, like, “Hey, this sucks shit.” The “um” was for—

CY: I hope the movie is really esoteric and weird.

VRAI: Oh, do I have good news for you!

CY: Oh, I want it to be so fucky. I’m so hype.

VRAI: [Chuckles] I just wanted to sort—

CHIAKI: I’m along for any kind of ride.

VRAI: Heyo! Were there things about the TV show that we haven’t had time to cover or that we didn’t hit on yet? For me, it’s just that Touga and Saionji belong in the same ditch together, and I unironically ship them pretty hard.

CHIAKI: Absolutely.

CY: I do want to say something charmed me about Touga and Saionji not getting access to the car but instead to a motorbike with a sidecar and having a conversation about how you really should be sitting and it’s dangerous to stand in the sidecar. That really got me and I was like, [Chuckles] “You both suck so much.”

VRAI: They’re just shitty teenage boys in their little sidecar vroom-vroom.

CY: They’re so shitty in their little sidecar, going vroom-vroom, and it’s so funny, because then they have that absolute realization that they’re like, “Oh, yeah, it’s dangerous to stand in this,” and it’s nothing like a car. I do find it fascinating— So, this comes out in ‘97. I find it fascinating in 2024 that men are still pulling the same shit of being like, “Well, maybe, maybe if you had’ve said no to me, I wouldn’t have been tempted!” negating the fact that he’s a grown man. I just find that really interesting. That commentary is, uh, truly timeless, huh?

VRAI: Yep! Yeah, no, listen—

CHIAKI: Since time immemorial.

VRAI: Nothing about everything about Akio has gotten less potent, which is depressing, frankly.

CHIAKI: Did I say this before, that Akio is the teacher from high school that you thought was cool but in retrospect is the saddest man in the world?

CY: You did, and it definitely still stands.

VRAI: I feel like you talked about that— I think I feel like you brought that up in the Slack but have not said it in posterity for recording, so thank you for doing that.

CY: He is, though! This is a man who literally peaked in high school. And he decided, “You know what? If I peaked then, then I can go back and find girls in that age range,” and it’s just like, ew, gross.

VRAI: He doesn’t get older and they stay the same… age. I’ll see myself out.

CHIAKI: That’s the great thing about dating high school girl— I… mm, yeah.

VRAI: [crosstalk] Yeah. Yeah! [Inhales sharply]

CY: [Chuckles] Ew! I forgot that phrase existed, but yeah, that’s really the way— It’s really the way to describe him, isn’t it? Aw, yucky. Yeah, he’s just horrible. He’s just horrible and he sucks, and, like I said, I hope he gets hit by a car in the movie. You’ll have to keep listening to find out if that comes true, if you don’t know if it comes true. Don’t spoil me on Twitter if it doesn’t come true. Let me live my dream.

VRAI: [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: You know… You know, there’s such a thing called fanfiction.

CY: Oh, boy, yeah! Oh, that’s gonna be my new hot AO3 fic, is “Akio Gets Hit by a Car.”

[Chuckling]

CHIAKI: I will say, I guess, just touching upon the student council, otherwise, one thing that I just thought about was, is Miki just one of the girls at this point?

CY: Yeah.

CHIAKI: I’m glad.

VRAI: Look, there’s a lot of people who read Miki as an egg. There’s some very interesting meta-reading reading Anthy as a trans girl. So, yeah, no, um—

CY: That’s an interesting one. Okay!

CHIAKI: I mean, okay, speaking, as a trans woman, I’ll just say that we like to attach ourselves to everything and anything and automatically assume they’re trans. So, I mean, that’s just par for the course.

CY: But I can see it! Okay! Now, Miki, especially Miki, I did have a few thoughts.

CHIAKI: [crosstalk] Miki, though.

CY: I was like, “Oh, sweetie. Give yourself about two or three more years.”

CHIAKI: That nice sky-blue hair is gonna be pink in no time.

CY: Yeah, I mean, like— And Miki can see the blueprint via the twin. Like, there you go. There you go.

VRAI: There’s this weird one-off scene in the movie where Juri flirts with him for some reason, so I take that as canon that that means that Miki’s a girl.

CHIAKI: Okay, fair.

CY: Love it, love it.

VRAI: [Chuckles]

CY: Live, laugh, love it.

CHIAKI: Perfect.

VRAI: Any last words you want to throw out on the TV series before we sort of put it to bed for the moment?

CY: I think I like this Ikuhara guy.

VRAI: [Chuckles]

CY: Is that… is that the right guy?

VRAI: Yeah.

CHIAKI: Yeah.

CY: Yeah, I do see… Now, I don’t mean to disparage him. I do see how a freak like him makes Yurikuma Arashi. Jesus Christ. I have, since we started this, seen the opening to that anime. Oh, my God. So, I see where it began now.

CHIAKI: I should watch that.

VRAI: We should!

CY: I see where it began. Yeah, because that’s the bears with a lot of cunnilingus, huh?

VRAI: Yes.

CY: [Chuckles] Yeah. Yeah, I see where he got— I see how he got there. And I kinda love it for him.

VRAI: [crosstalk] That’s definitely his horniest show.

CY: Okay, because I—

CHIAKI: I mean, I mean, I mean, also, though…

VRAI: Nope, more than Sarazanmai.

CHIAKI: [Sighs] Okay. Because, I mean, you know, that’s all butt sex.

VRAI: It is.

CHIAKI: It’s all butt sex. The entire show is couched on butt sex.

VRAI: Mm-hm. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is! Mm, delightful.

CHIAKI: It’s just a different type of gay sex!

CY: Cannot stop giggling. I cannot stop giggling. That is so incredibly…

CHIAKI: You know what? Utena’s actually kinda chaste.

VRAI: I mean, they do hold hands at the end. That’s pretty… pretty lewd.

CHIAKI: Oh, yeah. Hm.

CY: I did have a very Victorian moment when those fingertips touched. I was like [Gasps]. It really took me out.

VRAI: Hands are the gayest extremity. Yeah. Yeah, mm-hm.

CHIAKI: [crosstalk] I did have to lie back on the couch.

CY: They really are. They really are. So fucking [obscured by crosstalk].

CHIAKI: Had the vapors.

VRAI: Yeah, I think that’s a good note to end on. Yeah, that’s a good one.

CY: Good shit. That’s what Utena is.

VRAI: Thank you for joining us for this, AniFam. I have had a delightful time getting to share this with you two and everybody at home. It’s been so much fun.

If you like what you heard, you can find more from the team by going to animefeminist.com. If you really like what you heard, consider going to patreon.com/animefeminist or ko-fi.com/animefeminist, because those are how we keep the lights on and how we fund new projects. We cannot do it without all of you. It seriously means the world.

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Thank you so, so much. And remember: before you can revolutionize the world…

CY: Vroom-vroom.

VRAI: Vroom-vroom, you must revolutionize yourself. Vroom-vroom.