Chatty AF 211: Revolutionary Girl Utena Watchalong – Episodes 28-34 (WITH TRANSCRIPT)

CY: I apologize, because my fan is going to be very present in this audio, but it is hot! [Chuckles]

VRAI: It’s really hot. I think perhaps the audience will forgive us.

CHIAKI: It is 31.1 degrees in my room right now. That’s… Oh, what is that in Fahrenheit?

CY: Hot. That’s what it is, is it’s hot!

[Introductory musical theme]

VRAI: Hello and welcome to Chatty AF: The Anime Feminist Podcast. My name is Vrai. I’m the daily operations manager at Anime Feminist. You can find me on Bluesky sometimes @WriterVrai. And I am joined, as per usual, by the wonderful Chiaki and Cy.

CHIAKI: Hi, this is Chiaki Hirai. I am one of the editors for AniFem. You can find me on my socials at terrible.moe. That has all the links, because who knows where we are online these days.

[Chuckling]

CY: Hi. My name is Cy, and I’m joining you from my fainting couch, very sad and hot. I am a staff editor here at Anime Feminist and, once again, very sad and hot because I watched this show.

CHIAKI: I’m glad you’re hot, though.

VRAI: So important.

CY: The hot is definitely… it’s physical and it’s temperature. [Chuckles] Because Jesus Christ.

VRAI: You’re having a… hot boy summer? Is that still what the kids say?

CY: [Chuckles] I’m having a hot boy summer, for sure!

[Chuckling]

CY: All the time. It’s always hot boy summer in this temperamental body.

VRAI: [Chuckles] All right, folks at home, welcome back to our Revolutionary Girl Utena watchalong. It has been a little bit of a gap. Just to fill folks in at home, we posted about this on our Patreon and on our social media (which, incidentally, you can find at linktr.ee/animefeminist, and that’s all the places we are), but we had to take a bit of a hiatus from this watchalong for a little while because of various just health and life issues of the team. Cy wrote an article back in June, maybe late May, that covered truly just a fraction of the things they’ve been dealing with this year.

CY: I’m having a hard time! I’m having such a hard time! [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: A little bit.

CY: Yeah, a little, just a little.

VRAI: Yeah. And Chiaki, you too are going through it with day job stuff, and we are about to head into the heaviest part of the show, so we thought, you know, let’s just put it on pause for a second. So, I hope you will forgive us as we shake off the dust a little bit. Also, while we were away, Crunchyroll dropped Utena from streaming without any warning whatsoever. We don’t know why.

CY: They sure did! They sure did! Went to search for it and was like, “Oh!” And then went on Twitter and was like, “Oh, I guess it’s true. It’s just not there anymore.”

VRAI: Yup! Fortunately, the official uploads that Nozomi put on their YouTube channel over a decade ago are still there. They are a little bit crunchy, visual fidelity–wise, and they do utilize the old subtitles from the DVD release, which are not bad subtitles by any means. It just means there are one or two lines— You two are both fluent in Japanese, so it’s not like it’s a crisis. It just means there will be a little bit of an extra hoop to jump through next time about one particular episode that I’ll want to talk about.

But yeah, that’s where we are right now. And speaking of where we are, how are you?

CY: [Laughs bitterly]

VRAI: How are you feeling, about this?

CY: Whew!

CHIAKI: Well, you know how I am usually, in terms of emotional distress. Never actually feeling it, but I can… I understand. How about you, Cy? How are you doing?

CY: Ooh! So, Cy made a big ol’ mistake and watched all of these back to back and was like, oh, God! [Chuckles] Oh, God! I mean, everything happens in this set of episodes. Like, wow! It was just me and a pack of Wild Berry Pop-Tarts. [Chuckles]

VRAI: It’s a lot! Yeah, so, we do try to keep this cast… You know, Cy and Chiaki have not seen the show before, so we try to keep discussion spoiler free for anything after where we’re at. But if you’re refreshing your memory at home, this is the stretch of episodes that’s a lot about sexual violence, so I think that will be a lot of the conversation today, just as a heads-up! I think once we start talking about Anthy, we’re not going to stop talking about Anthy, so I want to make sure we touch on the two two-partners that come before those episodes. And I’m genuinely curious, before I have anything to say, what you thought about the two Juri episodes.

CY: Oh, Jesus Christ, where’s the therapist? Where’s the therapist for these children?

[Chuckling]

CY: Especially Juri! Oh, my God!

CHIAKI: Juri goes through a lot. And she doesn’t… she doesn’t deserve it.

CY: She does not deserve it, but she also gets freed from that pain? Is anyone free in this world? [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: I mean, she gets to live with it. She gets to live with Ruka’s, I guess, death.

CY: And like, fuck Ruka for just being like, “We die, I’m out.” Like, dude! Bro! Fuck off. Like, bro. I know he’s a child.

CHIAKI: [Chuckles]

CY: But bro. Sometimes you can tell a child, fuck off! Like, just comes in and causes mess and dies. [Laughs]

CHIAKI: I know that…

VRAI: You know, who among us has not been there? Except for all of us.

CY: And sexually assaults someone while he’s alive! Like, dude, bro. Oh, you know what, not “someone,” two someones. They technically fuck in that car!

CHIAKI: [crosstalk] Yeah, he kinda came in like a hurricane. Right? Just passes through.

CY: Oh, my God, just passes through, fucks Shiori in the back of a car while Akio is just there like, “Vroom-vroom!” which is real awkward. Also, question: do you think Akio is keeping protection in that car? Because I think Mr. End-of-the-World really ain’t about that. Was very concerned during that scene, had some adult concerns! Just does that and then decides to kiss Juri in a way that’s like “Ew, gross, ugh, gross.” Ugh! [Chuckles]

VRAI: Yeah, okay, I feel validated. Uh-huh, go ahead.

CHIAKI: I have started to just call Akio car the village bicycle.

VRAI: You’re not wrong.

CY: That car is so dirty. It needs one of those TikTok deep cleaning videos. Jesus Christ! Everybody getting some in the backseat of that car. And Akio just… like, he just does his Olympic handstand, flips over, sits on the hot, the hot hood of that car, just scalds his butt cheeks, which is what he deserves.

CHIAKI: That’s how you scuff the hood. You know, I learned that from, uh… was it Showtime? I think it was Showtime.

CY: So funny. Just pops off like he’s Japanese Simone Biles. Pisses me off!

VRAI: [Laughs]

CY: Pisses me off so much! Fucking hate Akio.

VRAI: [crosstalk] Ooh, this is incredible.

CY: No, that two-parter is rough. That two-parter is rough, because I… You know, a callous reading might say, “Well, Shiori fucked around and found out.” I don’t think she deserves what happens to her. I don’t think she deserves to be torn down in front of the entire school. And the entire school just stands there and watches as she has a meltdown, which, oofah-doofah… I don’t think she deserves this. I don’t think Ruka’s attempt to break Juri out of this one-sided pain and relationship she’s in helps. I felt so bad when that locket breaks and Juri cannot breathe. I mean, she just crumbles. And then it rains and it’s like, oh, yeah, she’s hurting. Oh, it just sucks! Just sucks and everyone hurts!

CHIAKI: And Shiori wasn’t even asking for anything.

CY: No!

CHIAKI: It was Ruka coming in to offer a promise for something greater and then immediately discards her the second, the very second she’s no longer of use. So that’s, you know, the definition of abuse right there, right?

VRAI: Yeah, the nearest I can figure is that because, you know, he’s been secretly in love with Juri this whole time, we’re given to understand, his goal is to basically do what he thinks Shiori did to Juri when they were younger, is the best I could figure. But like, why? You have not benefited Juri in any way by doing this.

CY: And what Ruka fails to understand is what happened to Juri is very comphet. And you’re just a cis man with blue hair coming in and fucking around, and then he literally gets to leave the damage he did behind, like in the most physical way. And it sucks. He sucks and he should… Well, I mean, if his ghost exists, it should feel ashamed.

VRAI: [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: You know, if we could go back to the Black Rose Saga, we should just put his body in a… into the pit. Just put him in the pit. Burn him up.

VRAI: There are still probably some coffins down there.

CY: Put him in the pit.

[Chuckling]

CY: Put him in the pit. Put him in the pit for Pride Month! [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: Oh, God.

VRAI: Yeah! [Laughs]

CHIAKI: Happy Pride.

VRAI: No, I have always kind of disliked these two episodes. I think they’re the weakest in the show. And I think I finally, this watch (what, my fifth, my sixth?), put it together why. Because all of the student council duels we sort of talked about last time are about the various student council kids getting super close to figuring out what their central issue is, and then they fail at the last hurdle and regress into their old behavior. And the other kids… you know, Nanami’s episodes that we’re going to talk about, Miki and his sister, and when we get to Touga next time, they’re all sort of really tightly written to kind of draw closed stories that have been building through each of the three arcs. 

But with Juri, it’s like the writers backed themselves into the corner where Juri’s very proud and very set in her ways about this issue. There’s nobody that can force her to change that perspective that we’ve established up to this point. Right? She’s not going to be impressed by Akio, because she is like the most lesbian, or Touga, who’s technically the only one who was above her in stature at this point. You know, she and Utena kind of have developed a rapport, but she doesn’t listen to Utena. And Shiori is so into her self-loathing need to hide behind other people to shore up her own lack of self-worth that they don’t talk to each other at all, and there’s basically no way to force them into a confrontation. So we had to make up a new character, who we’ve never met before, who is magically better than Juri at everything, to force her to get to this place where she duels and doesn’t even try to give up this relationship. It is torn from her, so it doesn’t feel like she is making that progress herself. And I think that’s why I don’t like it.

CY: Yeah, I don’t like fuck-ass Gary Stu. I hate him. I hate him so much. Because it’s exactly what you said. It’s just what you said, yeah.

CHIAKI: Yeah, he has no bearing whatsoever. I was like, okay, well, you’re here, cool. Oh, and you’re gone.

VRAI: “You’re a dude! And we’re moving on. All right, cool!” Yeah, let us never speak of Ruka again. He sucks. I truly ate him more than Akio. At least Akio is interesting.

CHIAKI: Akio at least has staying power. He has the nerve to not die, you know?

CY: Yeah, and he’s got a car.

CHIAKI: And he’s got a car.

CY: He’s very casual at it.

VRAI: Boy, has he got a car. Bad things happen in that car.

CY: Jesus Christ.

CHIAKI: Actually, I’m wondering if it’s the same car. Because they crash the car once in a while, right?

CY: He’s just constantly buying the same model?

CHIAKI: He did mention it’s like the most popular model this season. So, I mean, does he just own the dealership?

CY: [Laughs] That’s the funniest thing about Akio I’ve ever thought.

VRAI: Let’s move on to Nanami’s two-parter, a.k.a. the one where I cry, and then I don’t stop crying for four episodes. So, we’re finally talking about the incest thing. Do you feel like this pays off all the uncomfortable stuff from the early arcs?

CY: Yeah, it actually kinda does. In the most horrific way. Yeah, which is that Nanami’s like, “Oh. Oh, this isn’t… Uh-uh, uh-uh, no. Uh-uh, no, this is not what I thought it was gonna be like, no!” Real rude of her brother to pull that shit. Real rude of her brother to just fuck around with her.

CHIAKI: And it’s funny that, you know… To fuck around with her in the sense like, “Oh, we’re not actually related,” which gives her an existential crisis. But the fact is they are… they are brother and sister!

CY: It is so incredibly fucked up of him. And I do like, in Episode 31, the frog motif of every time he pushes her a little. I think that’s very funny. But it’s also just like… It sends her into this really obsessed behavior until she realizes, “Oh, this is not what I thought it was. This is not… Nope, uh-uh, don’t want this now. Don’t want— Uh-uh, no!” It’s a really brutal way she learns that lesson.

VRAI: Yeah, it’s rough. I think I only noticed on this watch that the frog motif recurs whenever Touga is basically directly imitating Akio. Like, we have it twice with him, and then they repeat it one more time when Akio is quote-unquote “teasing” Utena in the observatory, and it’s “Oh, no, now I’m sad.” This is all directly learned, mimicked behavior from the predator who is predating upon him. It all rolls downhill.

I think we keep coming back to how opaque Touga can be compared to some of the other characters. But what do you think he’s doing here?

CHIAKI: Is he in full command or at least knowledgeable of Nanami’s motivations and it’s really pushing him to be like, “Well, I don’t want any of that. I don’t want to be a part of this, so I’m going to do the worst possible thing to Nanami to ensure that, you know, we stay in the clear,” or is he just stirring the pot?

CY: It feels like he’s trying to prove a point. But it also feels like what you said, Chiaki, where it’s just like, okay, it feels like he’s also trying to disillusion her to what this relationship actually would be like, because Nanami has this very romanticized relationship of this “Oh, we’re not technically blood related, but we still have this romance and we’re like brother and sister and we still have this passion between us.” And then she sees what that relationship actually looks like and sees how actually abusive it is, and it feels like he maybe was kind of prepping her for the fact that, like, hey, it’s actually not sunshine and rainbows. There’s actually real horror that can happen in this kind of relationship, especially if you go into it knowingly. But also, I don’t know that Touga is about that. I think that’s kind of the buildup, is it’s not quite clear what exactly he’s doing, if he’s just doing this because he knows his sister is dramatic or if he’s doing this with a point.

CHIAKI: Yeah. No, I mean, I do wonder. Like, maybe… I know Touga sucks, incredibly, but I mean, at the end of the day, he’s still a teenage boy. Yeah, he might have a sense of morals or at least some kind of thought for his sister. Right? So, is he trying at least or what?

VRAI: Yeah, because, I think, on the one hand, Touga benefits the most from the existing power structure and is the most threatening in that sense. But also, yeah, like you said, he’s also still a child and I think he truly loves both Nanami and Saionji and in this way that’s at war with the fact that he’s put in this position where it benefits him to use and hurt them. And I think he’s sort of caught at a crossroads there. And so, yeah, I think I wonder if he isn’t… I think I agree with you that it almost seems like he’s trying to push her away on purpose with this.

CY: His intent ahead of the end of Episode 31 really feels like, okay, he knows that Akio is doing this and he himself is like, “I don’t want this to ever be something that happens to me and my sister,” and is kind of trying to say, like, “Hey, I’m gonna give you a taste of it,” and then once Nanami kinda has that really big realization of horror when she witnesses Anthy— I mean, because I… [Sighs] To say Akio and Anthy have a relationship is to say that what is happening between them is consensual, and it’s just not. But when she witnesses their interaction and the abuse being visited upon Anthy, yeah, all that her brother has done kind of makes sense in this really frightening way.

VRAI: I think we— Obviously, you’ve both seen Dear Brother. What familiarity do you have with ‘80s, ‘90s… it’s not just shoujo that has pulled this, obviously, because there are certain… Pick a card! Pick a sister complex show. It’s probably in there. But, you know, let’s use shoujo as a shorthand, because this is a shoujo series itself. But to what extent have you come across the “Yay, we’re not blood related!” trope?

CY: Yeah, quite a bit.

CHIAKI: I mean, yeah, even without shoujo often, right, you have “Oh, we’re not related after— Okay, we can… The marriage is okay.” Right? Especially in isekai stuff.

VRAI: Yeah. Yeah, isekai and… I don’t want to throw shoujo under the bus here because I feel like nowadays it is much more common in little-sister wish-fulfillment series where it’s like, you want the fantasy of this person who’s never known anything outside of you and lives with their life wrapped around you but let’s make it technically legally a little less icky so I can absolve myself emotionally. And it’s bullshit. But yeah. 

So I think what I like so much about these episodes is that… like, Nanami doesn’t want them to secretly not be related. She still very much looks at their relationship like a child, and the fact that she has blood relation to Touga means that he can never throw her aside like she’s watched him do with other girls, every other girl, you know, for as long as he has been dating, their whole lives. And so, when that changes and “Yay, we’re not blood related!” it devastates her because now she’s just another girl. There is nothing about their relationship that protects it for her. And she discovers that, yeah, that sort of nebulous closeness that she wants in her mind where they baked together and shared a bed together and it was this very innocent, pure emotional closeness that you can’t have with another person when you grow up, it’s not the same as just turning it into a sexual relationship. Those things are different.

CY: Yeah, it’s really heartbreaking because her realization that she kind of has to find who she is to live, because that has kind of been her special thing up until now. I mean, besides that cowbell incident that I’m sure Nanami desperately wants everyone to forget about. Her special connection is her brother. That is kind of her reason why she exists and acts the way she does, and she’s kind of faced with this stark realization of “Uh-uh. I…Yeah, maybe…” And I think maybe… I hope she realizes that the thing she thought was special… maybe don’t go the incest route, sweetie. Uh-uh. Also, don’t be weird and watch him while he’s showering. That was 20 seconds too long.

CHIAKI: Okay, yeah, I was gonna say. That… [Sighs] That was a very long effort to save on production costs.

CY: [Laughs] It sure was!

VRAI: Yeah, we’re, uh… We’re saving up for the finale here. We’re doing some long shots. [Chuckles] It’s the year after Evangelion!

CY: Oh, okay, okay. Because they just held that for like… I mean, it was like 17 seconds because I counted, because I was like, whoa! [Chuckles] They held it for so long! And I was like, girl, just pick up his phone and go! Pick up his flip phone, leave the room. Uncomf for everybody.

[Chuckling]

CY: Oh, Nanami. Oh, God, I’m so worried for you, child.

VRAI: So worried. But you know, honestly, my standing theory is that she gets closer than any of the other student council kiddos to self-actualization. Like, she doesn’t make it either, but I think she’s the closest.

CY: Yeah, no, she… Absolutely. Absolutely. She comes so close.

VRAI: Yeah. She and Anthy are neck and neck for my favorite characters in the whole show, and I love watching them interact. It’s maybe my favorite thing, the fact that by this point in the series you can really see how they’re foils. And I think the reason that Anthy enjoys… “picking on her” is not the right word, because Nanami always starts it and then it just turns into “You bring a knife, she brings a cannon.” But I think Anthy sees her old self in Nanami, and that really hurts me! During the episodes where she’s staying over, it’s almost like Anthy is quietly venting off steam, but by freaking Nanami out.

CY: [Chuckles] With a saw, with an ice saw.

VRAI: Yeah! [Chuckles]

CY: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. The way Nanami was like, “Girl, I don’t trust you with that,” and Anthy’s like, “Oh, it’s no problem. Don’t worry, sweetie. We’re [unintelligible due to crosstalk].”

VRAI: Or are we?

CY: Love it. Love it so much. Because that’s also one of the rare times where we get to see Anthy as, like, a full-fledged human with a personality. It’s that little glimpse of her with the ice saw where it’s so clear she’s teasing Nanami. And it’s kind of like, “Whoa! Put that saw down.” It’s also incredibly funny because Anthy is a jokester! She kinda likes teasing people within a certain boundary. And I think that’s really lovely, and it’s really a shame that… it’s really a shame what all comes after.

VRAI: Yeah! So, let’s… let’s just rip that Band-Aid off. Episode 33 is devastating and affects everything that comes after. And just tell me your feelings. Let’s start there.

CY: I find it so brutal how Anthy delivers Utena as a bouquet of flowers to her brother. And ultimately that delivery is that Utena is processing her coerced… Yeah, I mean, you could say it’s coerced sex at the most mild. Really, it’s rape. It’s her processing her rape through the most mundane thing, which is what kind of sandwich she’s gonna make for tomorrow’s lunch. And it’s very clear it’s a sex scene, because at one point she pauses and makes an expression that indicates that something sexual is happening. And you can tell she’s anxious throughout the episode because she’s stretching more. She’s stretching a lot. She’s constantly doing a stretch. She’s moving. 

And it just really hurts that Anthy has given her up to her brother, in a way that… I think it’s easy to frame Anthy as a villain, but I think it’s much deeper than that. I think this is someone who has been deeply abused and dehumanized following an order. And I think that’s the cruelty, is that both of these young women have been placed in positions where they exist for Akio’s pleasure, and he does not give one single flying fuck about either one of them past control.

CHIAKI: Yeah, it’s that deep-rooted trauma that you can’t really undo without some serious, serious therapy, and also, you know, it’s not something you really recover from, per se; it’s something you work through and live with for the rest of your life, right? And so, it’s unlearning those unhealthy patterns which I think a lot of people can’t break from, and, you know, Anthy is no different there.

VRAI: Mm-hm. Yeah, I mean, and through these episodes, a lot of Anthy’s dialog is about how she loves her brother and she has her own prince already and these very adoring things that I think— You know, we’re invited to ask, I guess, to what degree is that earnest, what does that mean?

CY: I mean, I think… I mean, I think if you are someone who understands sexual assault and sexual abuse as a multifaceted, layered thing, you can absolutely love your abuser. You can earnestly love your abuser while also being horrifically abused. And those things don’t have to be separate, nor do they invalidate the abuse or invalidate the person. Like, if you’re talking about filial abuse, you absolutely can love the person that continues to hurt them. In fact, I think that’s actually what makes the abuse worse, right? It’s so clear Anthy loves her brother. It’s so, so evident that she loves him. But also, he, through her and through the abuse he’s visiting on her, is able to weaponize her and is able to get the prize he wants, which is Utena. 

And I mean, she’s delivered just like a flower delivery. She is delivered to him. He, I mean, literally plucks the petals off of her. He takes away… You know, and I don’t want to get into, like, “He takes away the special thing for her.” He rapes her. He rapes her, and Utena, from my perspective, is trying to process this as best she can, through the mundane thought of making a sandwich, which is not an unrealistic thing that people do. I mean, how many times have we seen stories of marginalized people getting through rape, getting through sexual assault by trying to just distance themselves to survive that event, right? And so, I mean, Anthy loves her brother, but she’s also a victim. And she is the weapon with which he is visiting harm upon somebody else.

VRAI: Yeah. The scene that always really gets me is at the very beginning when she’s in the observatory and she talks about “I don’t want to look at the real stars.” At this point, she has closed herself in this reality that she’s built where she loves her brother and it’s just the two of them against the world, and she needs that reality to not look at how awful she’s feeling about this. What you were saying about the dissociation is so… yeah, so on point. The thing it always reminds me of, the sandwich scene, is, of all things, this song “Oasis” by Amanda Palmer, which is this super happy, bouncy pop song about this girl who is described… she goes to a party, she gets sexually assaulted, and then she has to have an abortion, but the chorus always comes back to “She sent a fan letter to Oasis and she’s really excited about it.”

CY: Because I think a really simple reading of that scene is like, “Oh, I can’t ever think about sandwiches again!” And I think that if you are someone that has that gut reaction of that, I invite you to think deeper about why someone in the midst of a sexual act would need to think and talk about something else, because Utena doesn’t talk like this the rest of the series. She’s particularly chatty this episode in a way that clearly indicates, because of how the camera is positioned, that this is at Akio and this is her trying to process what I suspect she knows is going to happen. And she’s trying to process the fact that there’s no amount of no she can say; he’s going to visit this upon her regardless. And I think if you get to that point and you’re like, “Ugh, why is she talking about sandwiches?” you really have to think deeper about the fact that, like, why is he doing this to her, and why has he created a situation where she has to fully leave that moment, and maybe what that means, right? Like, the sandwich isn’t the point of it. The sexual assault is.

VRAI: Well, I’m not— I think you could maybe say— I don’t even know that she thinks of it as impending rape, which it very much is! This is rape. Even if she quote-unquote “consented,” she’s a child, she has no means to leave, you know, power dynamics, all that other stuff. But this would be the—if we assume that this is contemporary, you know, the mid-90s—“You are a girl who goes somewhere overnight with a boy, and, gosh, some stuff is gonna happen because he took you out and he bought you dinner.” And there’s just that, you know, “Things will lead” place because all men are wolves. And I think… yeah, it’s so normalized.

CY: [crosstalk] I don’t think she thinks of it as rape, actually. Yeah! You know what? Yeah, I don’t think she actually thinks of it as rape; it’s just what happens. Right? That’s just what happens when you’re a young woman and it’s an older man and, you know, he’s been so nice to you, he’s letting you stay in his house. You know, this is the kind of the… you know, the payment for—

VRAI: [crosstalk] And you do like him. You enjoyed kissing him.

CY: The payment for marginalized genders is always the body, right? So, like, it’s just kind of a social thing.

CHIAKI: Yeah. Well, from what I’ve seen from Utena so far is that she’s seeking that prince, right? And I’m wondering, like, okay, as a teen, and you’re with somebody that may or may not be that person and, you know, they’ve been nice, as you said, you know, they’ve been nice, they’ve been doing all this stuff, you know, he’s been sort of the vision of who she would maybe model a prince after, she might be feeling like, “Okay, this is what I owe him.” Right? And it’s wrong, but when you’re a kid and you don’t have that education or that knowledge that what he’s doing is just completely fucked up, she’s trying to internalize— She knows, she has that gut feeling that this isn’t going to be quite what she wants to do, but she’s trying to justify herself or at least taking her mind off of it with the sandwiches, right?

CY: Well, and I… you know, I think this episode… because I had to take a break, I’m not gonna lie, and I watched two hours of How It’s Made and I learned how jawbreakers and stuff are made, and that was a great distraction because one thought I couldn’t get out of my head was like… you know, I remember in the 2010s when the whole “Consent is sexy” movement was happening and how confusing consent had been before then. 

And I will say, as a survivor of rape and sexual assault, I saw a lot of myself in Utena, and I think that might have been, for me, why I got very triggered, was like… You know, growing up, this was just kind of what men did. And that doesn’t justify it at all. You know, I stand fully by the thought that non-men, marginalized genders, should not have to be covered head to toe for men to not rape; men should just not rape. And so, one thing I thought about was the fact—and you said it, Vrai—of, like, you know what, maybe she didn’t know. Maybe this is just what was expected. Maybe at some point some adult or girls in her peer group said, “Well, that’s just what it takes,” or “That’s just what he’s gonna want. You know, just take your mind off of it and bear with it. It’ll be over quickly.” 

And, you know, that’s a very real thing that we still have in the world. That still exists in 2024. I think it’s really hard for people to think it exists in 2024, but it absolutely does. There are absolutely teenagers, young adults, who believe that this is just what men do and you just gotta be patient and bear with it and maybe it won’t happen often. But yeah, it’s really horrific. It’s really horrific. It’s just like, Jesus Christ, she didn’t deserve this. And he manipulates her into it. He manipulates her into it.

VRAI: Yeah, and I’m sure it’s so much easier when she is… like, she’s attracted to him and maybe would want to do things with him at some point, but not like this, not… You know, it’s so placed thoroughly out of her control and her comfort and her knowledge. And that’s part of what’s so upsetting about it, is taking these feelings and using them as a weapon against her. Yeah.

I do think— Before we talk about the last episode, I feel like we do kind of need to at least sit for a minute with… I guess I want to check in about, uh, the racial politics for Anthy and for Akio, honestly.

CY: Ooh. Oh, boy. Whew!

VRAI: Because… Yeah, please, Cy. Not to put you on the spot if you don’t. Yeah.

CY: It is striking to me that the biggest villain—and I think that term is apt at this point—that the biggest villain and the person who is doing some of the most violent physical assault is the darkest character in the cast.

VRAI: Yeah!

CY: It is really discomforting to me. Also, I didn’t say it, but shout-out to Episode 30 for having a weird Afro joke in the middle of the skit that was unnecessary. Unnecessary. Just like… I had to pause because I was like, what the actual fuck? But it is so fascinating to me that it is a dark-skinned, multiracial, biracial… because, I mean, it’s clear from their names that Akio is presumably Indian and Japanese, as is his sister. It is striking— And they’re drawn differently, too. I just want to say they’re drawn a little differently. Like, Akio has less Japanese features despite having a Japanese name and has some kind of worrying stuff about his character in the way he’s drawn. 

But it’s really striking that the darker-skinned, the very obvious darker-skinned character is the villain, but also that his sister, who is also darker skinned, receives so little sympathy outside of our main character. Like, Utena gives Anthy a lot of sympathy, but I don’t see a lot of sympathy coming to Anthy as a victim. In fact, any time she’s depicted after Akio assaults her is this very wanton kind of laying in bed, hair everywhere, this… I’m gonna use a trope often assigned to Black women, the Jezebel is kinda how she gets painted. It’s really discomforting, and y’all, I don’t know that the show is gonna say anything about it, but it’s upsetting.

CHIAKI: For me it’s the volume, right? Like, there’s objectification for all of the characters in a sense. Each one gets their sort of turn, but Anthy in particular, we keep going back to her in that state.

CY: All the time. It’s so upsetting. It is so upsetting. And it’s dehumanizing. And I’m sure that is part of what is at play, right, is this radical dehumanization of Anthy. But then I think of… like, the only time that her Indian heritage is brought up is for a fucking joke about going to India to get curry! It’s just like… [Sighs] I know, I know perhaps it isn’t fair to apply the standards and expectations of what we would want today onto yesterday. Right? I get that. However, that also negates the fact that fucking brown people, dark brown people have always existed. [Chuckles] So, like… It’s just… It’s really uncomfortable and increasingly getting… because in theory, everyone here is Japanese and, by proxy, nonwhite. But there is a severe difference between, like, what Akio looks like and his Japanese contemporaries look like.

CHIAKI: No, I mean, I will say this in terms of the notion of, you know, whiteness or Japaneseness in anime. I think it’s more of a symbolic thing, right? Like, you don’t have to literally be white to exude that privilege, especially when you’re looking at something like anime where there’s a presumption of who is, quote, “normal” or “average looking” versus somebody that’s exotified. You know, because we have that huge debate over whether Sailor Moon is Japanese or white or not. 

Like, I don’t give a shit about it. You know, these aren’t thoughts that people have when you’re Japanese. Right? When you’re Japanese and you’re watching an anime and you see a quote-unquote “white-coded” character, you just perceive them as a Japanese character because you are in Japan, you are Japanese, and you’re watching a Japanese media product, right? So, I think those power dynamics and racial issues apply to anime when it’s applied to people who are quote-unquote, the “normal”… not normal, but the people that are perceived to be Japanese or of the majority.

CY: Yeah, because it’s just… It’s… I don’t know if I’m going to sound dramatic saying “egregious,” but it is really just like, wow. It’s hard to ignore it with Akio, right?

VRAI: Yeah.

CY: Like, I don’t think it’s wrong to have a character that is a different ethnicity as a villain. By all means. That would be so weird if I were Black and like “No one who’s of this race can be a villain, of this ethnic background can be a villain.” I think it’s the way it’s done, because there’s so much brutality put into the actions he’s doing, and I think that is very striking in its horror, that a lot of what he does is this manipulation of young, demure women. And that’s fucked up. It’s fucked up. Just gonna say it’s fucked up. And it’s really discomforting.

VRAI: Yeah. I think I will want to ask you this again when we do the next episode and see this because… like, I’m not gonna say, “And soon you will regret your words and deeds!” Nah, fuck that. I think saying that it’s gratuitous in violence with Anthy’s description is a perfectly reasonable tack to come down on if that’s where you end up at the end of the show, but we are going to explore a lot about Anthy and violence done to Anthy in those last five episodes—and we sort of do with 34 here—because I truly think, putting aside effect, which I think is very, very reasonable to talk about as a fraught thing… 

I think Anthy being the only brown-skinned girl on campus is very purposeful in terms of what’s going on with her and the show talking about tropes of expected submissiveness for Southeast Asian women and this pervasive racism that everyone always finds a way to blame her. Everything is always the one brown girl’s fault. And, you know, Anthy is definitely Indian. We do have an article on the site that I think is quite interesting, where somebody did write about why they resonated with Anthy as being sort of Black coded as well, in terms of being adultified as this sort of all-knowing threat.

CY: Yeah, because one term that— It’s funny you say the “Black coded” thing because one term that kept coming to mind every time, since the kind of sexual aspect of her relationship with Akio has come into play, is that someone could easily use the term “fast” for Anthy. And that is a term that I have seen in the Black community, in my community, be used for girls who have these… I think people would call them an entanglement instead of saying it’s a fuck-ass old man manipulating a child… but these quote-unquote “entanglements” with adult men. And it disguises the actual fact of what’s happening. But if you look at her from a Black-coded standpoint, Anthy probably would socially be considered fast. She’s a little too mature for her age, and, well, it’s her fault that she’s playing with fire, when in actuality, no, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. She’s being manipulated. Like, what does she have to do to get some sympathy? She is going through it. What does she fucking have to do to get some sympathy?

VRAI: Yeah. For real, though! yeah. And I think part of the justification might be that, well, they are… you know, as we find out in 34, they’re supposed to be these ancient, sort of mythic archetypes of the prince and the witch, and, you know, the world originated with brown people and that’s why we’ve made them darker skinned than everybody else, and maybe that’s part of the thought process. I don’t think that that excuses it if you say, like, as you very rightly pointed out, where we’ve ended up, that, yeah, whatever a person maybe wants to say, they’ve… they’re trying— Sorry, hold on. There’s a really loud scraping sound. Sorry. [Laughs] 

Whatever we can discuss the show is or isn’t successfully doing with Anthy by the end, I think they just didn’t think with… Like, I think Akio is… the racial implications of Akio as the darkest-skinned man on the cast and also the worst predator, that’s just a thing. That’s just a thing that the show doesn’t really deal with, I’ll go ahead and say now. And it’s…! Yeah, it fucking is.

CY: And like, I’m not saying, like, everybody else should be predators to equalize it. Like, no! You know, but it’s just wild that he’s the worst and he looks like that!

VRAI: Yeah! Yeah, it’s a thing!

CY: Oh, my God! [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: And, I mean, you know, just speaking as a Japanese person and exuding all of my privilege here and being that asshole, right, I’m gonna just come out and say it and say Japanese people don’t realize this. Right? A lot of people probably consciously don’t think about it when they put these tropes in. I think, in terms of making Akio and Anthy brown, it may very well have been like, “We want somebody exotic and alien, and that’s how we wanted to do it,” and then that’s what you get, right? It wasn’t like a conscious “Brown people are likely to be more abusive than Japanese people.” It’s not so much that consciousness. I think it was they were trying to create a character who is different or somebody that will catch your eye and be cool looking to lure you.

CY: It brings to mind— So, in 2018 there was a huge issue online in Japan Twitter… and I don’t know if it extended to Japanese Twitter, as well… but in Japan Twitter, about a comedian who painted his face to impersonate Eddie Murphy during a New Year’s show. And it brings to mind that… Like, when my coworkers brought it up, they were like, “Well, but he’s doing an impression.” And my counter was “Why did he need to paint himself the color of shoe polish to impersonate Eddie Murphy? He could have just kept his skin tone and done that, or they could have hired, like, I don’t know, a Black Japanese person or a Black person that speaks Japanese?” And I remember us having a conversation and one of my teachers was like, “I didn’t think about that, that they could have just hired a Black person that spoke Japanese.” And I was like, yeah! [Chuckles] Yeah, they could’ve. They could’ve, right?

And that kinda makes me think of what’s at play here, is that I don’t think there’s intentional desire to harm through the depiction of Akio as the darkest-skinned character in the cast, as the villain, and as a villain who is doing what I would say is one of the most horrific things you can visit upon somebody else’s body, which is taking away their autonomy through the act of physically taking that from them. But I also think, you know, you can say there’s no harm intended while also understanding it doesn’t matter if there’s not harm intended there; there’s still harm that can happen. And it’s a multi-layered thing, right? It’s multi-layered.

CHIAKI: Mm-hm, right. Now, I’ll say that, you know, I feel like Ikuni’s a little bit more… a little bit more like— Ikuhara’s a little bit more aware and sensitive to potential issues like this, right? I’m not saying he’s like on the gold star here because, I mean, look at this, but I think he’s a little bit more aware or capable of understanding this kind of thing. But the comedians that you’re talking about, Cy, that’s downtown… They’re basically like… [Sighs] What’s a good equivalent? They’re like, I want to say Jeremy Clarkson and the Top Gear guys in the UK. But also, what’s a good American…? [Chuckles] Basically, they’re like—

VRAI: I was gonna say, there’s been blackface on SNL post-2000! [Chuckles]

CY: Yeah, it’s wild, isn’t it? Yeah.

CHIAKI: [crosstalk] Yeah, exactly. It’s one of those guys who is like, [Deepens voice] “I’m just trying to be funny! Why are you outlawing my right to be funny, man?” [Returns to normal voice] You know, it’s that kind of comedy group. So, I mean, they probably knew it was going to be pretty racy and they wanted to push those boundaries and they got burned for it.

CY: Because that was one of the things that came out of this, was a lot of people were like, “Well, Japanese people don’t know what blackface is.” Bullshit! Blackface got imported to Japan with Commodore Perry. He was like, “Hey, I got this hot new thing from America. It’s called making fun of black people!” [Chuckles] So, there’s a history there. And also, in 2018 and, I would say, now, you can’t just say cultures don’t know things about things, because… There is some truth to that. There is some truth if you’re in a culture where you’re represented, yeah. I mean, I think to some degree that’s why blackface probably shows up on SNL, is it’s a writer’s room of people who don’t look Black or aren’t Black, and one dude’s like, “I think this will be funny,” and they execute and then they’re like, “Oh, no. Oh, no, the people don’t like that.”

VRAI: “It was a bad thing we shouldn’t have done.”

CY: Yeah, like, also, give some props that Japanese people in Japan are not ignorant. [Chuckles] Like, they, too—

CHIAKI: And there are more Black Japanese people these days. I mean, maybe not these days, but they’ve been there and they’re becoming much more visible, especially now, right?

CY: Yeah. Like, give some credit to Japanese people for having awareness and also being able to have an opinion about right from wrong. Because when I think about my coworkers and the fact that we had that conversation, they ultimately were like, “Yeah, I can see how that is really harmful, and I can see how that could hurt you. And I didn’t think about it, because I’ve lived in Fukushima my entire life, but I understand how that is really harmful.” And so, if they can come to that conclusion, like… y’all. And, you know, I’m interested to revisit the question of Akio because it’s also interesting because clearly they’re—and call me out if I’m wrong—they feel like they’re paralleling Hinduism and creation myths. But I also don’t know if that is me reading Indian culture and just going with Hinduism. That might totally be my very American opinion.

VRAI: Yeah. Yeah, we do have to wrap up soon, but before we do, I do want to touch on that last episode, because there’s so much there, and I want to read y’all the commentary that went along with 34 and see how that affects the thoughts you’re having on what we’ve been talking about. So, the write-up for that is:

“Has the prince become a mechanism to allow princesses to exist? Or is the existence of his princess the only thing holding up the sleeping prince’s noble heart? The Rose Bride is born. I’ve prepared three points of view. The prince as a victim: Akio is what the ruined prince has come to in the end, the End of the World. The prince’s tragedy. The Rose Bride is born: she saves the prince and in exchange for keeping him all to herself, she becomes the witch and that is the tragedy. Ream after ream of faxes comes in to the prince’s mountain hideaway. I wonder if these sorts of expressions feel a little dated. Would it be text message after text message now? Or flame after flame on the internet? Oh, but I guess you can just block texts from people if you don’t want them. No, no, a prince mustn’t do something like that. It must be rough being a prince in any age.”

CY: I’m ashamed to admit that now I have more complex feelings and am still confused.

[Laughter]

VRAI: The Utena experience! [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: Yeah. You know, it starts off with “I am completely confused. What’s going on here?” And then at the very bottom, you’re crying and you’re going, “I don’t understand what’s going on here.”

VRAI: I guess I want to know most of all your feelings on the reveal about Utena’s memory, the refrain we’ve been seeing since Episode 1, and the reframed context of that.

CY: I’m just gonna say it for everyone. Fucking finally! I was like, something’s sus about that memory, girl! Something’s sus about it! And now we find out, oh, it’s so sad! It’s so sad! It’s so much sadder! Oh, my God! Oh, my God.

CHIAKI: Yeah. When you go back to the Black Rose saga, and I understand why people… I still agree that that is a core part of the show, right? But seeing that reveal and going like, “Okay!” like, finally having all those things click into place, I can understand why some people might look back and go like, “Man, what the fuck was that all about?” Right?

VRAI: [Chuckles] Right. Right, because it’s not about Utena and her prince.

CHIAKI: Right. Because I think Episode 34 is extremely cathartic in, like, it’s finally allowed people to kind of get that release in terms of all this tension of “What the fuck is going on?” and finally kind of getting, maybe not so much closure, but at least a way to process the series finally.

CY: Yeah, we finally get the ability to understand all of these moving parts. I find it fascinating that Utena wakes up and does not remember this but we the audience, we the viewer, kind of watching this play in an almost Princess Tutu–esque way, remember this and know that, oh, shit, they’ve always been entangled. It’s really sad. Like, shoutout to Anthy for being a girl who cannot die, cannot rest, cannot save her humanity, can’t have humanity because no matter what she did, she was always going to be the villain in her own story. Just, like, ugh, ugh, fucking so sad. Jesus Christ.

CHIAKI: By the way, I’m just reading over the commentary that you just read, Vrai, because I happen to also have that booklet.

VRAI: [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: And, you know, thinking back on the fax, I did notice the fax, and I was like, “Ah, yes, I understand where this is going.”

VRAI: [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: Because that’s very much an anime moment. Like, I mean, yes, like, ‘90s, but also the reams of faxes coming in if you’re any kind of media employee in the ‘90s in Japan, oh, my God, yeah, if the fax is going nonstop, you are going crazy. [Chuckles]

VRAI: [Chuckles] This is a snapshot of trauma from the animators’ room.

[Laughter]

CY: It sure is, it sure is.

VRAI: [Laughs]

CY: No, I really like how things came together, though, because there’s something suspicious about this memory that Utena has. It’s too neat. It’s too neat, it’s too tidy, it’s too pristine, and it’s just… it’s not… I don’t think it’s a pessimistic view to say that is just not how that story feels like it should be. It feels like there’s layers missing, and finally we get that filled in, and we see that, yeah, unfortunately, it is kind of a really brutal narrative, and that those memories… you know, Utena ends that episode with those memories closer to the surface. She has not yet really fully recalled them and internalized them, but they’re there and they’re waiting to be activated, and I really feel like that’s what the end of this… this— Oh, my God, we’ve only got like five more episodes left. How are they going to do it?

VRAI: Mm-hm.

[Chuckling]

CY: Because there’s just one movie, right? Or is there two?

VRAI: There’s just one movie.

CY: Okay. That’s where they get— Okay, I’m excited about that.

VRAI: [Giggles]

CY: I think. I don’t know. Your laugh made me anxious [about] if I’m excited about it or not.

VRAI: I love the movie, but it’s not what you’re expecting.

CY: Oh, boy. But no, like, we… Yeah, it ends with her realizing… you know, these memories, subconsciously, they’re there, and so I’m really excited to see how over five episodes they’re going to make those apparent, because I have anxiety! [Chuckles] I’m so anxious for all these children.

VRAI: It is truly one of my, like, scream, fall-on-the-floor, claw-at-the-walls moments forever that… God, I wish we could have more long original anime, because the payoff that this story about fairy tales and archetypes and princes and princesses and gender roles is ultimately a story about a little girl who wants to save another little girl from her suffering. There’s a bit of official promo art of little Utena and little Anthy hugging, and sometimes I look at it and I cry!

CHIAKI: Aw.

CY: Yeah, because she realizes, like, this poor child cannot die. She is permanently suffering. And all she wants to do is become the prince that can save her.

VRAI: Which we will definitely unpick.

CY: Yeah, I think that’s really beautiful but I also think it’s so complex as they lie on those half-circle beds, traumatized.

VRAI: Yeah.

CY: Fuck them beds.

VRAI: [crosstalk] And we probably do not have time to get into the duality of Akio but Dios also existing as a character, and the fact that he leads Utena to her but also he’s the reason she’s suffering and… God, it’s so much.

CY: Fuck Akio. I hate him. I know he went through trauma…

VRAI: [crosstalk] That is fair and right.

CY: I know he went through trauma, but you can say, “You need help” but also “I’m not going to be the one,” at the same time.

VRAI: Mm-hm. Yeah, no, fuck him.

CY: He sucks.

VRAI: Don’t!

[Chuckling]

CY: Somehow I get the feeling he’s not in the market for fat trans boys, but, you know…

[Chuckling]

CY: I’ll do my best to avoid him!

VRAI: God.

CY: I already— I have too much trauma. He can’t traumatize me. What are you gonna do, Akio? Make me feel worse? I already do that myself. Bam. [Chuckles]

CHIAKI: You’re so right, though. Same feels. Same feels.

VRAI: Don’t worry, y’all. I’m sure that if he could get something out of the two of you, he would absolutely traumatize you.

CHIAKI: Aw!

CY: Oh, yeah. Men like him will always find a way to hurt people if that meets an end, unfortunately.

CHIAKI: That’s all right. Not much else to traumatize me with anymore. Anyway…

VRAI: Oh, girl. Uh, now that we’re all very sad, do you have any last burning thoughts you want to get out before I bring us in for a landing?

CHIAKI: Excited for the end?

CY: God, I cannot wait.

CHIAKI: Bring it on.

CY: I’m so hype! I’m so hype!

VRAI: [Chuckles] I’m so hyped to hear what both of you think.

CY: Bring on the trauma! Yeah! Whew!

VRAI: You know, that feels like a good note to end on. Thank you so much for joining us, AniFam. If you like what you heard/read, consider going to https://www.animefeminist.com to see more from the team. If you really liked what you heard today, consider going to patreon.com/animefeminist or ko-fi.com/animefeminist. That is how we stay on the air, as it were. Patreon covers our monthly expenses and our costs, the cost of putting things together, keeping things running, transcribing these podcasts. And our Ko-fi is where we save up for bigger-ticket items and sort of dream wishes, which is how this year we’ve been able to pay our contributor $75 an article instead of $50, which we’d really like to continue doing. We’ve had some absolutely stellar articles in 2024. And if you’d agree and just want to toss us a one-off fiver or something, consider heading over there.

Otherwise, as I said up above, our socials are on Linktree, /animefeminist. We would love to see you there. And yeah, next time we’re going into the finale. It’s big feels. It’s the Christmas finale. We’re ready! We’re not ready.